Oral History Transcript - Wallace Dockall - February 7, 2008
Interview with Wallace Dockall
Interviewer: Barbara Thibodeaux
Date of Interview: February 7, 2008
Location: LBJ Museum, San Marcos, Texas
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Interviewee: Distinguished Alumnus Wallace Dockall received his bachelor’s degree from SWT in 1948 and his master’s the following year. He joined the administrative team that oversaw the development and opening of Gary Job Corps in 1965. In 1970, he became CEO of the Texas Educational Foundation which managed the Gary Job Corp Training Center and other centers. Mr. Dockall retired from the Texas Education Foundation in 1993.
Topics: Gary Job Corps Center, Texas Educational Foundation, Gary Job Corps Center students visits to LBJ Ranch
BARBARA THIBODEAUX: This recording is part of the LBJ Centennial Celebration Oral History Project sponsored by Texas State University. Today is February 7, 2008. My name is Barbara Thibodeaux. I am interviewing Wallace Dockall at the LBJ Museum in San Marcos, Texas.
First of all I would like to find out how you came to join or become employed at the Gary Job Corps Center.
WALLACE DOCKALL: I was the principal of Travis High School in Austin, Texas in January of 1965. I learned about the Gary Job Corps Center being opened in 1965, and after visits to the Gary Job Corps Center from Austin, I resigned my position at the Travis High School in Austin to become principal of the Gary Job Corps Center - which the organization was very similar to the public school system set-up. We had a superintendent and a principal and then the other departments. That was in the third week of January 1965 that I came down and signed the contract to work at the Gary Job Corps Center.
THIBODEAUX: How long was that after the facility had opened?
DOCKALL: That was the beginning of the facility. At the start. They had not started any construction what so ever. They were trying to put together an organization or staff organization to begin with – hiring teachers and all the departmental managers and these kind of things.
THIBODEAUX: Can you describe the background of the facility?
DOCKALL: A very dismal kind of facility when I came in January of ’65. It was an abandoned air force base as we all know. The buildings were in a condition of being really destroyed, but a lot of rehabilitation work had to be done because of the deterioration of the entire facility. So it was not a very appealing kind of facility at that point and time. A lot of debris; grass had grown through the area and all these kinds of very unsightly things.
THIBODEAUX: Were you there at the dedication?
DOCKALL: Yes, April 10, 1965. I was the principal at the time.
THIBODEAUX: Was President Johnson there for the dedication?
DOCKALL: Oh yes. He flew in by helicopter from the ranch and landed there on the apron of the airport. And we had about two hundred young people, men, on the campus at that time that had just come in the first part of March, and they escorted him over to the theater where we had the dedication ceremony on April the 10th. And we had two or three of the students who were there and he met them and visited with them. And he became so excited about that visit – let me back up a minute and tell you – also on that same day after the dedication ceremony in the theater, really the old theater there in the center, they had him over to the cafeteria where they prepared a barbeque lunch for him. And the students did this as part of our culinary arts program. He was most excited about that and of course the students impressed him very well. So in route back to the ranch by helicopter, he radioed Governor Connally to say that he wanted to expand this facility, which was scheduled to house 2,000 young men, from 2,000 to 3,000 young men by the end of the year. And Governor Connally then became very excited about that and began to put together some organization in order to bring about this expansion. Okay, I’m going to stop there.
THIBODEAUX: (laughing) Did you find that very exciting – the thought of the facility that wasn’t even completed – expanding?
DOCKALL: Right.
THIBODEAUX: Can you describe the program?
DOCKALL: Well, let me back up a moment, Barbara, and describe first of all the organization of the Texas Educational Foundation. When it was announced in November of ’64 by the President when he came to the Texas State University for the graduation ceremony speech, he contacted Governor Connally there and told Governor Connally that he did not want a corporate contractor type of organization to operate this facility. So the Governor then put together a three member board from the State of Texas – I can give you those names if you care to – but anyway, which would become then the Texas Educational Foundation, a non-profit type of organization. And the members at that time consisted of Dr. A.B. Templeton, who was the president of Sam Houston State University, Mr. Bob Thornton, who is president of the State Bank and Trust Company here in San Marcos, and Mr. Cecil Ruby, who is a road construction contractor. Those are the three original members of the board called Texas Educational Foundation. And as I said that was in coordination with Governor Connally appointing these three board members.
THIBODEAUX: So did the funding come from the federal government?
DOCKALL: Yes, directly. We’re a contractor for the federal government.
THIBODEAUX: Okay. And is it still…
DOCKALL: In those days it was the Office of Economic Opportunity, not the Labor Department. The Labor Department took over the program in 1970. Excuse me, 1960. So we were contractors with the Labor Department from that point on after getting out from under the Office of Economic Opportunity.
THIBODEAUX: So is it still under the Department of Labor today?
DOCKALL: Correct.
THIBODEAUX: Can you describe what the program consists of at the Job Corps Center?
DOCKALL: We established the basic courses like reading, English, math, and we tried to design the program so that it would be encompassing the vocational areas that the students would be pursuing such as automotive trade, culinary arts – back there in those days we had tailoring. In fact we had about 24 different vocations that were established, and all of the academic classes were designed to support or reinforce really those classes in vocational training. So anyway I could go on and give you a lot of detail, but I think that is enough of that.
THIBODEAUX: Was there any community interaction?
DOCKALL: Oh yes, very much so. The mayor was very much involved along with the city council in working with the center and getting acquainted. Naturally, the three board members were trying to establish as much support from the community as they possibly could. We had a public relations person who worked throughout the community to seek support for the Gary Job Corps Center.
THIBODEAUX: Did the students ever work on projects in the community?
DOCKALL: Oh yes, a number of projects over the years. That was one of the goals of the center really to support the community in every way we possibly could with the students doing various projects in the community, and they did a number of projects over the years for the community.
THIBODEAUX: Can you remember or give an example of one or two?
DOCKALL: We did some brick work around the square here in San Marcos. We did a lot of construction; for example, the train station, wait station over here by the railroad track. They built that facility. Then there was the rock work around the square, the building of flower beds which were made of brick and so forth that would hold the dirt and all this kind of thing. Just numerous, numerous activities that support services we did for the community with the students. And culinary arts was deeply involved helping various occasions in the community to provide cooking services and these kinds of things. So anyway, it’s very broad. I could go on for ages and talk about it, but I better…
THIBODEAUX: Well, I’m willing (laughing). How long were you at Gary Job Corps Center?
DOCKALL: From ’65 and I retired in ’93. However, in 1970, let me back up a moment. In 1967 the Texas Educational Foundation signed another contract for a women’s job corps center in McKinney, Texas. At that time, we had a reorganization at the top. Dr. O. J. Baker became the officer then for both contracts, and fortunately I was elevated to the center’s director position from a principal position at the Gary Job Corps Center. Then in 1970, Dr. O. J. Baker expired and they moved me up then to CEO. Of course, at that time he was the CEO and the executive director of the corporation, and after he passed on I was elevated to that position that he held as the CEO and executive director of the corps. So that was the highest paid position in the corporation and I reported directly to, like he did, directly to the three member board regularly and that was in 1970. I retired from that position in 1993.
THIBODEAUX: Are there three job corps centers that are under the Texas Educational Foundation?
DOCKALL: As I mentioned the McKinney Job Corps Center opened in 1968. Then soon after that in 1970, we signed a contract to operate the El Paso Job Corps Center. So we had three contracts at that point and time.
THIBODEAUX: Are there any other job corps centers in Texas under a different agency?
DOCKALL: There was one in Laredo operated by another contractor and I can’t remember that contractor’s name.
THIBODEAUX: Over the years that you were with the Job Corps Center and with the Texas Educational Foundation, what changes did you see in the program?
DOCKALL: The major change I guess would be when we, the Labor Department decided they would co-ed the center by bringing in women to the center. Prior to that we were having a great deal of problems with the young men at the center. We had about 3,300 at that point and time when they decided to bring in the women. Of course, they reduced the men’s strength then, and as I started to say, one of the problems we had was young men going off center on weekends. We transported them into Austin, San Antonio just to get them away from the environment of the center. And then when the women came in, we were concerned about the overall reaction and the problems we would have at the center. But it was a good decision actually because it stabilized the center from the standpoint of giving the young men an opportunity to visit with young women at the center. We had dances for them and a lot of activities on the center on weekends and during the week. As a result we transported very, very few young people off-center on weekends. We had a guest house, I guess what we would call a guest house, in Austin and a guest house in San Antonio, just to take the young men, at that point and time to these facilities where we transported them to that particular location and then spread out in the community and did what shopping they wanted to do and then return to the buses, pick them up and bring them back to the center.
THIBODEAUX: That must have been challenging with an age group 16 to 24.
DOCKALL: Say again.
THIBODEAUX: I said it must have been challenging trying to corral that age …
DOCKALL: It was, it really was. Enrollment dropped from 3300 young men then down to about 2800 and we had about 200 young women at the center at that time. So we had numerous problems, but fortunately we were able to resolve most differences. (laughing) It happened between the men and the women.
THIBODEAUX: Where did the students come from?
DOCKALL: To begin with, they came from all over the United States. We had a large number of them from Chicago, Philadelphia, California, Louisiana, and Midwest states, Kansas and so forth. So they were flown in here as well as trained in here, by train and bused in here from all over the United States. Now that changed when the Department of Labor came in. They tried to regionalize them to the centers then where it would be Texas and the four border states primarily.
THIBODEAUX: Were these volunteers? Would students sign up to come?
DOCKALL: Right, right. They had recruiting agencies out there to contact primarily the State of Texas program. An example would be the employment services would do all the recruiting, try to identify the young men who need the kind of program – unemployed, most of them are dropouts from school. And then the employment agencies would try to review the background the best they could of the young men; see if they could benefit from the program. Agencies decided if they could benefit when actually they were recruited and sent to the Gary Job Corps Center.
THIBODEAUX: Did it draw a lot of Hispanics from this area?
DOCKALL: Not to begin with, but when it began to grow, we had predominately Caucasians to start with and then we had a good input, large input of black students. And then eventually we had the Mexican-American students begin to grow in enrollment.
THIBODEAUX: In addition to the projects that were done around town and the youth who were drawn in from the area, what other impacts on San Marcos has the Gary Job Corps Center created?
DOCKALL: Well, it was a very strong economic impact on the community because of the number of employees we had out there. We had about 1200 employees at the center and, of course, a large number of them came from the public school systems, particularly all of our teachers and some of the principals who came in and took management positions at the center. Naturally, all of these staff members became involved in the community. [They] required housing and all of the other necessities for life and it did have quite an impact on the community.
THIBODEAUX: Have you found that the Gary Job Corps Center, and I guess the others too, meet the needs in Texas or do you – when you were there did you see that it would have benefited Texas to have more job corps centers?
DOCKALL: In the early days I would say no because the program was so new. We had a number of problems at the centers, and we needed to become better organized in managing students that we were getting because a lot of the teachers that came into the job corps centers for employment did not experience a number of the individual student problems that we were encountering and experiencing. So OEO [Office of Economic Opportunity] was very liberal in the kind of policies we had in managing the students. Plus the fact the number of students coming in the earlier days were not very well screened. So many of them really should not have been entered into the program because they could not benefit from it because their past experiences and behavior and all of those things. In answer to your question, no, for a number of years we didn’t need anymore centers in the State of Texas.
THIBODEAUX: Was there ever a time during the different administrations that funding for the job corps centers was in jeopardy?
DOCKALL: No, we had ample funding all the way. Really did.
THIBODEAUX: How has the efficacy of the centers been judged or evaluated? The success of the program.
DOCKALL: The Department of Labor set up standards in our contracts that we had to meet. Fortunately, we were ranked among the high performers over the years. Now the Gary Job Corps Center was one of three large centers throughout the states: Breckinridge Center in Kentucky, they had about 1800 students, and then there was the center in Utah that had about 1200 students, and of course, we were still the largest center in that point and time – I’m talking about the ‘60s, late part of ’65. Sixties being ’65 forward. Most of the other centers throughout the United States were much smaller centers designed for 400, 500, 300 students. Our women’s center in McKinney, for example, had 600 young women over there. In El Paso, we had 300 students over there.
THIBODEAUX: What was the most challenging part of your position at the Gary Job Corps Center?
DOCKALL: The most challenging part? I have to say, repeating myself, the behavior of the students in the early days, ’65-’70. So many of the students that were recruited for the center should not have been sent to the center because of their background and behavioral traits and so forth. It was quite a challenge there for those four years to later in the ‘60s in trying to bring about good behavior on the center. (laugh) It really was.
THIBODEAUX: Did Lyndon Johnson ever visit the facility again beyond the dedication?
DOCKALL: No that was the only time. We had sent several of our students over to the ranch when he would be up there on weekends. He would want them to come up and come out and visit with him at the ranch – take a bus load of students over there to visit with him. So he never made it back to the center.
THIBODEAUX: Were you acquainted with him during these trips? Did you get to know him?
DOCKALL: Fairly well. I just knew him, not a close friendship, but anyway, kind of a friendship of just meeting him and being associated with the center. He knew what my job was at the center and we would converse on some problems we had and those kind of things.
THIBODEAUX: What was your impression of Lyndon Johnson?
DOCKALL: Very impressive. Very impressive. He really was. He was sincerely interested in these young people who we were trying to take care of.
THIBODEAUX: Well, I’m out of questions, but I am sure I have left out things. Is there anything else you would like to add? Anymore details? Information?
DOCKALL: Umm. I believe not Barbara at this time. Once I get started I can go on and on and on, but I believe I’ll just kind of close it at this point.
THIBODEAUX: Well thank you Mr. Dockall. It was a very good interview. I appreciate the information.
(End of interview)