Oral History Transcript - Theresa Schwartz - April 23, 2008
Interview with Theresa Shipp Schwartz
Interviewer: Barbara Thibodeaux
Date of Interview: April 23, 2008
Location: San Marcos, Texas
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Interviewee: Theresa Shipp Schwartz – A 1972 Journalism graduate of Texas State University and former Pedagog yearbook editor, Mrs. Schwartz was a member of the Student Senate, the legislative branch of Associated Student Government, when former President Johnson paid a visit and offered political advice to the young student senators. Later, she was working at the local radio station, KCNY, when Mr. Johnson died.
Pat Murdock and Gayle Granberry join in the conversation.
Topics: LBJ Award, coverage of Lyndon Johnson’s death for local San Marcos radio station, political unrest on campus late 60s early 70s, LBJ legacy.
(This transcript has been edited for nonessential words and conversation for the sake of clarity.)
BARBARA THIBODEAUX: This recording is part of the LBJ Centennial Celebration Oral History Project sponsored by Texas State University. Today is April 23, 2008. My name is Barbara Thibodeaux. I am interviewing Theresa Schwartz at San Marcos, Texas.
Mrs. Schwartz, even though you have agreed to the terms and conditions of the release pertaining to this interview in writing will you also acknowledge your acceptance with a yes or no.
THERESA SHIPP SCHWARTZ: Yes.
THIBODEAUX: Thank you very much. I just interviewed Gayle Granberry. Is she a relation of yours?
SCHWARTZ: As it would be yes, she is my sister.
THIBODEAUX: So you also grew up in San Marcos?
SCHWARTZ: Yes.
THIBODEAUX: When did you attend Southwest Texas?
SCHWARTZ: I started in the fall of ’66 and I was either a student or employed by the university until I graduated in 1972, (laughs) I think.
THIBODEAUX: I have 1972.
SCHWARTZ: Okay good. Thank you.
THIBODEAUX: That’s from Pat’s notes. What type of activities or work did you do on campus?
SCHWARTZ: Well as a student I was in the student senate, as an employee I was a student worker on what they call the work-study program. Then [I] had an opportunity to, because of financial and family reasons, I was actually the department secretary for home economics and then I was department secretary for the journalism department.
THIBODEAUX: While you were on campus, you said you had an association with the awards that were given out?
SCHWARTZ: Well actually my senior year, I was editor of the Pedagog and had opportunities as part of my job and learning what was going on and in revising past Pedagogs became familiar with two awards that then Southwest Texas had – one was called Sallie Beretta Award, which actually still does exist and still goes to the top woman student in each graduating class at Southwest Texas. During my tenure as a student and employee, they also had an award, the LBJ Award which was an award that went to the top male student. The Sallie Beretta Award was a silver tea service and the LBJ Award was a 1500 dollar stipend that most students who won used it do graduate work. Late ‘60s, early ‘70s, the woman’s movement, feeling powerful, I was part of a delegation that became convinced that this was absolutely gender discrimination.
So during my senior year the administration made the decision to change the LBJ Award to go to the top student in each graduating class instead of the top male student. I do not have anything in writing, but I was told that LBJ was very pleased. I would not be surprised by that – that the father of two daughters, that he might think that would have been a good thing.
So very limited there, but Pat Murdock pointed out, because I had forgotten because I was thinking so much about Southwest Texas, actually my internship – people were required to do an internship as a journalism major and mine was with the local San Marcos, the only radio station in San Marcos. Although I was no longer a student, we actually, Pat Murdock, who you’re going to interview after me, and I did do a broadcast when LBJ died where we had an opportunity to talk to local people on air who knew him and hear stories. I just think we are all real lucky to have been a part of the history.
THIBODEAUX: During that interview with locals, [do] you remember anyone?
SCHWARTZ: Well, I remember Jerri Martin, but she was Jerri Viedt then, married to the gentleman who owned the radio station. Pat, help me. You think Vance Winn probably might have been part of that?
PAT MURDOCK: He might have been.
SCHWARTZ: Okay, okay.
MURDOCK: This was during the funeral that we were on the air.
SCHWARTZ: Right. We were on the air during the time it was being televised. I’m blank, Bill Viedt actually, I believe, was the owner of the radio station. I think Bill was part of it.
MURDOCK: Actually Jerri’s father owned the station.
SCHWARTZ: Okay, Bill Viedt managed the station.
MURDOCK: Yes.
SCHWARTZ: I should have known he was the owner, he wrote my checks. (laughs)
THIBODEAUX: So the funeral was taking place in Austin, but you were broadcasting from San Marcos?
SCHWARTZ: Yes, yes. Do you remember who we talked to?
MURDOCK: I don’t remember who we talked to. We talked to a number of people and we talked a lot…
SCHWARTZ: Yes. Yes.
MURDOCK: about remembering LBJ visits.
SCHWARTZ: Right. And as always Pat had a whole file of stuff to help us. (laughs)
THIBODEAUX: And you are remembering again today.
SCHWARTZ: It was kind of bittersweet because I think there was so much frustration with the Vietnam War and we were very young. (laughs)
THIBODEAUX: Speaking of that frustration, you were on campus during those turbulent years when there were so many protests going on nationwide.
SCHWARTZ: Absolutely.
THIBODEAUX: What was the mood on campus – was there any unrest?
SCHWARTZ: Actually there was unrest and there were marches and protests and almost always on the quad. There would be, it could sometimes be one or two people or sometimes larger groups. Lots of signs. On the other hand, I also remember, and I have never seen any statistic, I feel like I went to school with a bunch of guys who were in college after Vietnam. Bill Boe who was a journalism major and others. I remember that I found that to be a little uncomfortable to be so opposed to the war and to have friends who served in Vietnam. They almost always were a little older and not particularly angry.
MURDOCK: There were three main camps on campus if you will recall with the demonstrations. One camp was the ROTC,
SCHWARTZ: Absolutely.
MURDOCK: backed up by the cowboys,
SCHWARTZ: Absolutely.
MURDOCK: and then there was what was lovingly referred to as the hippies that were the peace activists.
SCHWARTZ: It might be interesting, let’s pick one of those years. Let’s pick ’69 or ’70. What would be the student population of Southwest Texas have been then?
MURDOCK: Actually it would have been around 10,000 because in one of those early 70 years, ‘71, it went…
SCHWARTZ: It grew.
MURDOCK: over two milestones, 2,000 in one year.
SCHWARTZ: That’s really not a lot of people.
THIBODEAUX: Was there any interaction with protesters at the University of Texas?
SCHWARTZ: I know that there were groups from Southwest Texas who would go to Austin to participate. I do not necessarily remember, we didn’t need outside agitators, we had plenty at home. (laughs)
MURDOCK: Now I will say this, when we had the big streaking…
SCHWARTZ: Oh yes, yes, yes.
MURDOCK: carry on for a week.
SCHWARTZ: And that we don’t even talk about streaking anymore, do we?
GAYLE GRANBERRY: No, that’s very passé. (laughs)
MURDOCK: We had lots of UT visitors for that.
SCHWARTZ: Yes we did, we did, but I don’t…
MURDOCK: It degenerated to the body painters.
SCHWARTZ: Do you feel like we had an outside involvement in our protests?
MURDOCK: I think probably we had some students who had gone to other institutions that were a little more worldly than our students at the time, frankly.
GRANBERRY: Again, I remember by the time I graduated there was really not that much going on on campus. It was much more exciting with you guys.
SCHWARTZ: Right.
MURDOCK: I think really…
SCHWARTZ: Absolutely it was…
MURDOCK: when students and there was a certain amount of faculty agitation.
THIBODEAUX: That’s an interesting point. What was that?
MURDOCK: I’m not going to be able to say any direct names or anything because I don’t remember, but in the political science classes and in other classes there were faculty agitators.
SCHWARTZ: Absolutely.
MURDOCK:: I think this had been a peaceful, oblivious almost place until the McCrocklin demonstrations that may have started in ’67 but were really going good by ’68 over the plagiarism accusations. And that was tied to politics and was tied to faculty who had been brought here,
SCHWARTZ: Absolutely.
MURDOCK: who had actually come to Southwest Texas with McCrocklin. And the interesting thing about the McCrocklin thing was the naval papers that his dissertation contained so much of, but the other part along with that was, that I though was the most horrifying thing, probably because I was in graduate school when that all started, was the fact that he had been chair of the political science or history department yet he had served as the chair of his wife’s thesis when she got her masters from A and I. She had copied his dissertation for her thesis which [he] copied from the naval papers.
THIBODEAUX: Did anything happen to her masters?
MURDOCK: No.
THIBODEAUX: Okay, we’re getting off subject with that.
SCHWARTZ: That’s okay. It’s interesting, isn’t it?
THIBODEAUX: Um hmm. Well so you had personal connections to the Vietnam War era.
SCHWARTZ: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think solely because my age, but yeah…
THIBODEAUX: You mentioned your husband?
SCHWARTZ: Yes, yes. And actually he was [like] George Bush, he fortunately was able to get into the National Guard. So [he] did basic training and then was in the guard for eight years, but did not actually go to Vietnam. But it was a very scary moment for me when his draft notice came and LBJ was escalating the war in 1969. I can’t tell you I felt friendly, but in hindsight as I have aged I am amazed by the things that have really impacted our lives that I think LBJ was largely responsible for.
MURDOCK: There were 8,406 students enrolled for the 1968 – 69 school year and by 1973 – 74 school year there were 12,142.
THIBODEAUX: So Johnson’s reputation did not hurt the school.
MURDOCK: No.
SCHWARTZ: No, no. But mainly because we were known as a party school. No, I’m teasing. (laughs) Never mind, that was North Texas. I got confused. (laughs)
MURDOCK: It was actually Sam Houston where all my friends went to [from] junior college…
SCHWARTZ: Oh cool, all right.
MURDOCK: I didn’t want to come to Southwest Texas. I wanted to go with my friends, but it was…
SCHWARTZ: I would be curious, on your recording, and then we’re going to get out of here and let you do Pat – I forgot, why here, just because…
MURDOCK: Why I came here?
SCHWARTZ: I mean Gayle and I came…
MURDOCK: because you were from San Marcos. Well …
SCHWARTZ: because we could go to school cheaply… (inaudible due to simultaneous responses)
MURDOCK: it had been planned to come here, plus I had a family history here. I lived so far out in the boonies that…
SCHWARTZ: with no electricity, don’t…
MURDOCK: with no electricity.
GRANBERRY: until she was three.
SCHWARTZ: But let’s remember that.
MURDOCK: Yes.
SCHWARTZ: laughs.
MURDOCK: There were thirteen in my father’s family and I did grow up across the road from where my father was born. It was thirteen miles to the next town – away from high school and if they wanted to go to high school, they, because they were good Baptists, so many of them came to the San Marcos Baptist Academy.
SCHWARTZ: Ahh.
MURDOCK: And then they went to Southwest Texas. So it was a family tradition. It was planned. But I went with my friends from Wharton Junior [College], I stayed with an old maiden aunt and went to Wharton [County] Junior College and went with my friends when they registered at Sam. And it had the party school reputation then I might say. People forget that. I really wanted to go to Sam. I did not want to come …(laughs) and look at me now.
THIBODEAUX: And then you came and never left – hardly. (laughs)
SCHWARTZ: You have been so good for this university.
THIBODEAUX: Well one last question and then you can fill in anything that I may have left out. So what in your opinion was LBJ’s greatest legacy in Central Texas?
SCHWARTZ: We talked a little earlier, you know one of the things that I am so taken with Central Texas is that we produced a president and I think I’m moved by that. I love that I graduated from a school that produced a president. I think history will continue to treat him very, very well. Even though (laughs) he had all the failings that every human being does, but I think I was so moved, in his declining years by the impact the responsibilities that he had on him. It mellowed my opinion of him. I think he fully understood the responsibility. I think he understood fallibility and I think probably, which all of us do as we get older, recognized that he had some regrets. So I’m thrilled that I graduated from a school that produced a president, and it wasn’t Harvard. (laughs)
GRANBERRY: Or Yale.
SCHWARTZ: Or Yale. So it just goes to show greatness maybe has nothing to do with where you go to school. Maybe it has a whole lot more to do with who you are.
(Last few lines of conversation not included - end of interview.)