Oral History Transcript - Everette Swinney - February 21, 2008
Interview with Dr. Everette Swinney
Interviewer: Barbara Thibodeaux
Date of Interview: February 21, 2008
Location: San Marcos, Texas
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Interviewee: Dr. Everette Swinney – Distinguished Professor of History Emeritus Dr. Swinney taught at Texas State University from 1957 to 2005. An observer of campus happenings and a leader of the Faculty Senate for many years, Dr. Swinney played a major role in organizing the Retired Faculty and Staff Association.
This transcript has been edited for nonessential words and conversation for the sake of clarity.
BARBARA THIBODEAUX: This recording is part of the LBJ Centennial Celebration Oral History Project sponsored by Texas State University. Today is February 21, 2008. My name is Barbara Thibodeaux. I am interviewing Dr. Everette Swinney in San Marcos, Texas.
Dr. Swinney, even though you have agreed to terms and conditions of the release pertaining to this interview in writing, will you also verbally acknowledge your acceptance with a yes or a no?
EVERETTE SWINNEY: Yes.
THIBODEAUX: Thank you very much. Dr. Swinney, when did you join the history faculty at Southwest Texas?
SWINNEY: In 1957.
THIBODEAUX: And what were the circumstances that brought you to Southwest Texas?
SWINNEY: Do you want the long story or the short one?
THIBODEAUX: Well, we have time. (Both laugh) You can do either. Long story’s fine with me.
SWINNEY: I was finishing my master’s degree at Penn State. And the husband of a former faculty member here, who taught for Jimmy Taylor, came into the office where a group of graduate assistants were sitting around. He’d just gotten back from the Mississippi Valley Historical Conference, and he asked, “Does anybody have any interest in going to Texas?” Well, nobody did except me, and I said, “Well, I might be interested.” So this professor—Clark Spence is his name, and his wife Mary Lee, taught here back in the—it would’ve been the ‘40s—and so I contacted Jimmy Taylor, who was then head of the old social science division. And along late in the summer as their last choice, I’m sure, I got an invitation to join the faculty, and we moved down here in August of 1957, intending as a matter of fact to stay for one year. And that’s been fifty years ago. (laughs)
THIBODEAUX: I know that you came in 1957, and Professor [Howard M.] Greene retired in 1957. Did you have an opportunity to become acquainted with him?
SWINNEY: I met Professor Greene just once. He retired in the spring before the fall when we came in. And of course, he was a legend on campus. But sometime later, probably in the early ‘60s, he came by. At that time the history department was housed in what is now Flowers Hall, and he came by and a group of us chatted with him in the hall. And so it was just a brief conversation in which I was on the periphery of, but I did see him that one time.
THIBODEAUX: Do you remember any stories about Professor Greene and maybe Lyndon Johnson?
SWINNEY: Well, (laughs) I’ve heard a lot of stories. I’ve read a lot of stories, and of course, in all of the biographies, Greene—well, and in LBJ’s rhetoric—Greene is credited with being his primary inspiration, and I have heard all of those stories. Greene was also involved with the debate team, and Johnson was involved in debate. Greene was something of an advisor, perhaps an instigator of the White Star movement, which LBJ was involved in, and perhaps was maybe, in my opinion, his most important political experience on campus. I think I’ll stop there and see if you have any follow-up questions.
THIBODEAUX: Well, the only thing I have wondered about Professor Greene is that in several different books he’s referred to as an original thinker when it came to, I think, government, but it’s never explained beyond that. Do you have any thoughts or ideas about, you know, what his original thinking was, where that came from?
SWINNEY: It’s hard to answer a question like that. My impression is—and many of the biographies refer to this—is that Greene was not a reader. He was a talker, like LBJ. And I think that was one of the characteristics that caused them to seek each other out. Greene’s reputation as a teacher varied across campus. LBJ became famous, of course, because of LBJ’s recommendation, repeated references, but many students didn’t care for Greene particularly. I’ve heard one former student say that every day’s class was a political lecture. Greene’s politics were relatively liberal, progressive, maybe very liberal, very progressive, and I am not sure that there was a lot of original thought, as we would normally define it. I think he was essentially a politician.
THIBODEAUX: So Lyndon Johnson and Professor Greene certainly just had the same probably philosophy, ideas?
SWINNEY: I would think so. That Johnson came out of that environment through his father and through others and through rural origins with a natural affinity for the have-nots, and Greene, I think, had that same orientation.
THIBODEAUX: We’re going to move on a little bit. I know you talked about the 1960 election, but I was wondering if you could just maybe give a summary of the political landscape of the San Marcos area? Is that too broad?
SWINNEY: That’s awfully broad, and I think I don’t want to generalize about that. I hadn’t expected that and I would have to think about it some.
THIBODEAUX: Let me just narrow that down a little bit. Can you just maybe comment on the strength of the Democratic Party in this area?
SWINNEY: The Democratic Party was still very strong, and in local offices, of course, everybody were democrats. Now, the reason I have for backing off of the more general question is that I would want to look more carefully than I currently understand the course of Texas politics and this gradual transition to republicanism. But within San Marcos, the people I knew at least were very ardent democrats although there were many who, of course, were not. And just how that would break out—
I wasn’t that involved in the community per se. When you move into a community like San Marcos, it takes a long while to fit in and we hadn’t fit in yet. We were newcomers, and I did not have an awfully good sense at that time of local politics.
THIBODEAUX: Were you aware of what Johnson’s reputation was in this area?
SWINNEY: Well, both reputations. The favorable one and the hostile one. And of course, those had always vied, and they’re there in the biographies, particularly the [Robert] Caro biography there is the Johnson who was much admired, there was the Johnson who was much hated, and you find both of those elements in San Marcos.
THIBODEAUX: From the dislike point of view was there—
SWINNEY: From what point of view?
THIBODEAUX: —I guess the negative point of view, what was the central reasoning for that, do you know?
SWINNEY: Well, I guess essentially it was political, and the part of it that I’m familiar with flowed from Johnson’s student career. Lots of San Marcans went to Southwest Texas State Teachers College, and in the Black Star-White Star controversy there were San Marcans involved in the group—the Black Stars that had always been dominant, and so when LBJ helped engineer the revolution which changed the way campus politics worked, it left deep scars. And there were San Marcans who when Austin Avenue was changed to LBJ, that they changed their address because they didn’t want their places of businesses being on LBJ Drive.
THIBODEAUX: This question may go back to the political landscape, so we can skip over it if you’re not interested in answering it right now. I was just wondering about what was Johnson’s—do you know about LBJ’s influence in the Democratic Party in Texas?
SWINNEY: Johnson had always been controversial because there were—you know, he was a very aggressive personality, and there had been that disputed election. When he ran for the vice presidency in ’60 to balance the ticket, there were many Texans who had this hostile view. I can’t put proportions on it. I’d have to do some reading. But I do know from personal conversations that folks I knew in Ohio, which is my native state, had a more positive view of Johnson than many of the people I knew in Texas. And I think that flowed from in San Marcos aspects of the on-campus disagreements and problems that we have talked about, and the repercussions of the state political machinations that in some people’s minds Johnson was accused of.
THIBODEAUX: Now I will move on to the 1960 campaign. Can you just, I guess, flow with this? Maybe tell us what your role in it was, and just a little bit about the campaign?
SWINNEY: My role was very modest. Now, remember, we were new in San Marcos. We’d been here three years. But I became very enamored with John Fitzgerald Kennedy, and I have not been as enamored with a politician since. Normally I am not a joiner, and thinking back on it, it is uncharacteristic that I became involved with the Democratic Party in 1960 and played a very small insignificant role in the local campaign.
The democratic headquarters here in San Marcos was located—and I’m virtually positive of this although this is memory and I’m not sure how I would corroborate it absolutely—but I think the democratic headquarters was located in that old theater building which is now the LBJ Museum on Guadalupe. I’m just sure that’s where it was. And I and others would go down there and address envelopes and send out materials which came from the Democratic Party. It was almost all evening kind of stuff. I have no idea, no recollection of whether the facility was open all day long and whether people came in and out. We went down and did that sort of thing. Others that were involved that come to mind were John Walker, who was a professor of English—actually at that time probably an assistant professor [instructor] of English—who did not stay here very long, Dan Farlow. Those were the two that come to mind, and I’m sure there were others.
Then as the campaign came toward an end, we began hearing that it was Johnson’s plan to end the campaign for the vice presidency by making an appearance in this area, by coming home as it were. My recollection is that the attempt was made by some folks at the university to try to get him to do it here in San Marcos, but the decision was made that he would make his last campaign speech, which was on the eve of the election, in Wimberley.
And so I and some others—we had a sound truck, a white truck with speakers on the top. Once these plans became apparent—and there wasn’t a whole lot of lead time—drove around town and broadcasting the news that Johnson would appear in Wimberley at such-and-such a time for his final appearance prior to the election.
Then to try to get ready for that, a few of us—and I’m a little vague on who all was involved—but we went over to Wimberley and this event, I think, was held in the high school gymnasium in Wimberley. I’m pretty sure that’s where it was. And we took a good deal of trouble to set up a sound system—can’t remember where we got it—but a microphone and speakers and so forth, so that if there was a pretty good crowd that he could be easily heard. And then that evening, when we went over to Wimberley, LBJ’s assistants, the group that went with him, set our sound system aside and they had their own sound system they set up.
The people began to come in, and most of them from Wimberley, some from San Marcos. It was a good crowd. I don’t recall that it was an overflow crowd, but Johnson then delivered his speech. And I must say that it was the most effective political speech, in my opinion, that I’ve ever heard. I had this sense that Johnson was extremely comfortable talking to his people in this area, and he got very wound up and it was moving, it was exciting, and from the crowd’s reaction, I think it was quite effective. So it’s a memory that—there may be some inaccuracies in there someplace—but it’s a memory that’s very strong in my mind. I think substantially that’s a correct version of the story from my perspective.
THIBODEAUX: There was I think discussion about ending the campaign originally at the campus university. Do you know anything about that decision?
SWINNEY: No, I don’t. I remember—and I mentioned—I remembered it being discussed. Now, we’re where—1960, so President [John G.] Flowers would retire in what—’63—President Flowers was still president. My impression is—and this isn’t something I just dreamed up. I almost said it earlier when we were talking about it—my impression is that Dr. Flowers contacted LBJ and offered our Strahan Gym as a place to do this. I can’t verify that, but that is a recollection I have. And Johnson chose instead to go to Wimberley.
THIBODEAUX: There was a lot of talking—and now there’s a little bit of talk about Viva Kennedy. Just your limited role on the campaign, could you see if the Kennedy/Johnson campaign were actively trying to court the Hispanic vote?
SWINNEY: I’m not sure I can answer that. Given Johnson’s orientation, his enthusiasm about and success in his teaching at Cotulla, his general views on attempting to move people out of poverty, I would guess that he at least in the Hispanic areas did make that appeal. But that’s essentially an interpretation of mine rather than based on certain knowledge.
THIBODEAUX: Moving on to visits on campus unless—did I miss anything about the 1960 campaign?
SWINNEY: No.
THIBODEAUX: Okay.
SWINNEY: No. I had just that one—
THIBODEAUX: And that is a good story. I want to locate the speech he made in Wimberley.
SWINNEY: I doubt that—I don’t know about newspapers. You might check the newspapers—but I doubt that you’ll find much. I mean, he had been on the campaign trail so long, ever since (laughs) he was at Southwest Texas, and I imagine it just flowed.
THIBODEAUX: Ah. Good point.
SWINNEY: I mean, watch—we’re in the midst of a campaign now and all the speeches. Have you ever stopped to think of the stamina that it must take to conduct this kind of campaigning?
THIBODEAUX: Oh, yes.
SWINNEY: And you watch them in the debates and you watch them on TV, and of course, now we get so much analysis and so forth. But it just flows, and I think that’s part of the process—it’s kind of like someone who’s taught the same subject for years and they’re really well versed in it, and they may carry some notes in there, but they don’t refer to them much, and it just flows. It would be interesting to look in the papers and see if there’s anything there, but I would doubt it.
THIBODEAUX: That is interesting. I’ll check the Wimberley View before it was the Wimberley View—I’ve forgot the name of what it was called—to see if they have any coverage of it, and of course the San Marcos paper.
SWINNEY: Yeah. It might be kind of fun to run, oh, say, that last month of the campaign or the last couple of weeks leading up to the culmination and see if there was anything in either place. Or even the Star.
THIBODEAUX: Oh, yes, of course. I will check that.
This is on campus. You mentioned one of his later visits. I was just wondering if there were any prior to his retirement that you may have witnessed or been involved in.
SWINNEY: Well, not involved in. There were several that I witnessed. I saw him several times on campus. I think at a graduation ceremony, shook his hand on one occasion, was out to his ranch on one occasion, and so there was some contact, but I was very far removed.
But my dominant recollection of witnessing something involving LBJ was in 1973. On January 16, 1973, Johnson made his last visit to Southwest Texas campus. He brought with him his economic advisor, Walter Heller, who was then a professor at, I think, the University of Minnesota, and had come down to the LBJ School to give some sort of a seminar, and then Johnson had brought him down here. I’ve always thought of this as the first LBJ Lecture on campus. Now, we have the formal LBJ Lecture series, and this was not part of that. That probably hadn’t even been thought of, but it’s the sort of thing that we have done consistently over the years, and so I think of it as the first LBJ Lecture.
It was held in what was called the BAM Building [Business Administration and Math], which is now Derrick Hall, up on the second floor in a small theater. The crowd was, as I recall, students, faculty. I don’t know, fifty, seventy-five, maybe a hundred. That recollection is not very strong.
Johnson introduced Heller. Heller spoke about economic problems of the day, focusing primarily on Nixon’s price freeze and the general problem of inflation, the effect on farmers and ranchers, that sort of thing. And then there was a discussion period in which Johnson did a lot of the talking and commented on economic problems of the day using Hill Country rural examples of costs of production, effects of inflation, all of those kinds of things. And it was absolutely intriguing. I found it to be absolutely intriguing. That was on January 16, 1973. I think Johnson died six days later.
And if you go look at the Star, there is an article on January 19—I know because I looked this morning (laughs)—on the Heller lecture. I’ve thought about this so often over the years because I was so intrigued by it. But here is a Star story for you. Then the following issue, I think January 26, is the next Star. Can that be right? Yeah, probably so. I think Johnson maybe died on January 22. The January 26 issue of the Star, the very next issue, is devoted largely to LBJ. I just stumbled on that this morning when I went up to look up the Heller article—the article about Heller. And the front page on this other issue, the whole front page had a huge picture of Johnson, and a brief obit, and then I just scanned through and there are some interior articles. So that might be something you or someone else connected with this project would be interested in looking at or maybe already have.
THIBODEAUX: No. We certainly would be interested in looking at that for sure.
Well, that’s basically the questions that I had. Do you have anything that I’ve missed, something to add?
SWINNEY: Well, I don’t know that I do.
The subject of Southwest Texas State Teachers College in the ‘20s and ‘30s—indeed from 1903 to today interests me a good deal, and I’ve been poking around as much as I have time to do in that history. Much of what we know about San Marcos and the university, then college, in the ‘20s when Johnson was here, from ’27 to ’30, comes from the LBJ biographies. They really tell one, as you would expect, more about LBJ than they do about the university. And as we mentioned earlier, they focus particularly on the Greene connection, the Black Star-White Star controversy, the Cotulla year of—not year of—but the Cotulla teaching year. Incidentally, during that year Johnson took six courses by extension, and then when he came back to finish the final year, he had just enough hours by taking extra courses to graduate right on the one hundred and eighty hours required.
Well anyway, I’ve been poking around in this some, and I don’t have much information that I can add, but I hope that I may. Among other things I have been able to ferret out what will be a list of all of Johnson’s teachers when he was here at the university, some notion of class sizes during that period, of course titles, that sort of thing. So at some future time I might be able to talk about not so much Johnson but Southwest Texas at the time Johnson was here.
THIBODEAUX: That would be great. Contacts would be wonderful.
Well, thank you very much, Dr. Swinney.
SWINNEY: Well, you’re welcome.
THIBODEAUX: I really appreciate it. (end of recording)