Oral History Transcript - Leonard Wilson - March 12, 2008
Interview with Leonard Wilson
Interviewer: Barbara Thibodeaux
Date of Interview: March 12, 2008
Location: Austin, Texas
_____________________
Interviewee: Leonard Wilson – A 1972 graduate, Leonard was a member of the Ebony Players while a student at SWT. He was student director of the production of A Raisin in the Sun that was performed at the LBJ Ranch at President Johnson’s request in 1972.
Topics:
- Ebony Players at SWT
- Performance of Raisin in the Sun at the LBJ State Park
- Reconnecting with Eugene Lee and Texas State University
(This transcript has been edited for nonessential words and conversation for the sake of clarity.)
BARBARA THIBODEAUX: This recording is part of the LBJ Centennial Celebration Oral History Project sponsored by Texas State University. Today is March 12, [2008]. My name is Barbara Thibodeaux. I am interviewing Leonard Wilson at Austin, Texas.
Mr. Wilson, even though you have agreed to the terms and conditions of the release pertaining to this interview in writing, will you also verbally acknowledge your acceptance with a yes or a no?
LEONARD WILSON: Yes.
THIBODEAUX: Thank you very much.
Mr. Wilson, would you tell us when you attended Southwest Texas State College?
WILSON: I started Southwest in January of 1968. I am originally from New Braunfels, Texas, and I was the first one in my family to attend college, so it was a big deal.
THIBODEAUX: Were you a member of the Ebony Players?
WILSON: I became their first director when Eugene Lee and Thomas Carter approached Mr. Barton about putting together a black theater group. I was doing my student teaching at the time, so I wasn’t there on the campus. I was teaching at San Marcos High School. And I was approached later about would I direct their first production, and so I was honored to be asked to be involved with their project. The play was selected—Raisin was selected, and then we went about the process of finding enough black actors to fill all the roles.
THIBODEAUX: Now, the Ebony Players were not—or were they part of the theater department, or was it independent of what was going on in the theater department?
WILSON: It started out, like I said, with Thomas and Eugene who were drama majors, and they were concerned that there wasn’t enough plays being done for black actors who were there, but they weren’t getting a chance to do anything. So they approached—like I said—they approached Mr. Barton about that, and it became a part of, I guess, the department. I think maybe now—my understanding is that there’s a group that’s kind of taken it and they’re doing something different with the Players, but it originally started there in the department.
THIBODEAUX: So you were the director of Raisin in the Sun?
WILSON: Yeah. Mr. James Barton had approached me about co-directing the play with him. At that time I was the first undergraduate to direct a major production at the university. He felt that he didn’t have the perspective from the African American point of view. That’s why I was asked to join him with that, to be able to give a true interpretation of the play and have the right slant that we needed.
I remember there was one scene in particular that he never really understood was a scene where Mr. Lindner comes over and Walter has told him to come by. And he was going to take the money. Well, no, I take that back. It was the welcoming committee. When actually they’d moved into the neighborhood, the white neighborhood, he came over to tell them that they would be willing to pay them to move out of the neighborhood. Okay. At the end of the scene, the family laughs and they have a humorous moment. And he couldn’t understand that. He wanted to do sort of a—let’s see, what was his word that he used—it’s kind of a sardonic—but I said, “No. This would be a true—it would be funny to them, and they would be laughing and it would be a humorous moment.” And he said, “Well, I’m glad you’re here about that because I don’t understand that they would laugh after someone coming in and doing something like Mr. Lindner did in this particular scene.” So my being a part of the production gave it the fullness that it needed at that time.
THIBODEAUX: And you said you had to look for black actors?
WILSON: Um hmm.
THIBODEAUX: Where did you find—
WILSON: Well, I went to the family. I’m the oldest of ten, and my mother’s out of a family of—let’s see—nine. My father’s out of a family of thirteen, and then my grandfather’s out of a family of eighteen, and so there were lots of family. So my sister [Cynthia Wilson Navarette]—we both were attending Southwest at that time. She was an education major, but also we’d done plays together in high school. We went to the same high school. So I called, “Hey, we need an actress.” And so we had her to play Mama, and then my cousin played the son. And it’s really interesting now that—you know, I guess Johnny was nine years old then, maybe a little younger than that. But now he’s a grandfather, so a lot of time has passed.
But we went to the—and my sister was also in the sororities, so we went in and checked with the sororities and other departments to get enough people to cast the show, and it turned out very, very well.
THIBODEAUX: Do you know how it was arranged for the Raisin in the Sun to perform at the ranch?
WILSON: My understanding is that I think Dr.—Billy Mac Jones was the president of the college at that time. And they wanted—I believe, if I’m not mistaken, they had requested—the Johnsons or that organization wanted to bring something to the ranch for the—I’m trying to think—it was the opening of some something—I don’t remember now exactly what it was. But they wanted something from the school to be part of this dedication. And so my understanding is that the president of the college approached Mr. Barton about bringing the play to the ranch since this was at that time maybe the first black production done at the school and they thought it’d be appropriate to bring it to the ranch. So we were all thrilled about that.
THIBODEAUX: So was it a two-day process, one day of setting up and the next day was the play, or was it all done in one day?
WILSON: Well, I know they had to redesign the production to fit into the theater there. Dr. Fleming—David [John] Fleming, I believe, and he has since passed now—redesigned the production to fit into the theater there. I think we were down there a couple of days just setting things up for us to come in and do that. And we were there—let’s see, that’s been a long time ago now—I think we were there for a while to get set up and rehearse the space and be prepared for it, so it was a several-day process, yes.
THIBODEAUX: Do you remember any interaction with the Johnson family during the setting up process?
WILSON: We—at least I did not meet them until the night of the performance when they came in, in this, if I recollect, it was a pink convertible limousine. And everybody was there that night, as I recollect. All the media was there. So they pulled up and if I’m not mistaken he had on a white dinner jacket and his hair was real long, and they get out of the car and it was like sort of a red-carpet type situation. He’s coming up and everybody’s photographing them and all the media is there. As I remember I was introduced to him, I think, seven different times that night by different organizations that I was involved with there at the school. And we sat directly behind them, Mr. Barton and I and some of the faculty members, and my parents and my family was I think a few rows to my right because they were all there for the function.
The thing about that night, the air conditioning went out, so it was extremely hot.
THIBODEAUX: What time of year was it?
WILSON: Let’s see. It was the second semester, so I’m assuming it was April, May, sometime, but it was hot. And I don’t remember what happened, but the system failed, and everybody’s sweating. And he stopped at the intermission and said—made a comment about, I know it’s very hot in here but the play is so good, just bear with us.
THIBODEAUX: That was President Johnson that said that?
WILSON: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. He was very impressed with the production. Matter of fact, I think he really liked my sister’s performance because she was asked to come to a couple of functions after that, if I’m not mistaken. You’ll have to talk to her about that. She’s in Dallas, she’s teaching school in Dallas now.
But that was the one thing I particularly remember because it was hot. I mean, everybody’s sweating. The place is packed. You got all those people in there, and then the air conditioning fails. But the show went very, very well. I think all of them were glad that they were there.
THIBODEAUX: So can you describe when you did meet President Johnson?
WILSON: Well, I think, as I recollect, I walked around with my mouth open most of the time because here I am, this young boy from New Braunfels who never thought he would be in a situation like this, so I’m kind of walking around not believing what’s going on, trying to be polite. He was very tall. I remember him six-five, six-six, very tall, and he had this wonderful smile about him. And Mrs. Johnson, Lady Bird, she was very gracious, as I remember meeting both of them.
Then after about the third or fourth time of being introduced to him, he said, “Oh, yes, I’ve met him.” It got to be kind of like a joke after a while because different people were introducing me to the president.
Let’s see. I also met—it was interesting—I met the head of Universal that night, the head of CBS, oh, and a few other media heads were there that night, and I was telling my family I didn’t get a single card, phone number, or secretary’s phone. (laughs) Like I said, I was walking around with my mouth open.
THIBODEAUX: That is funny. I think when I talked to Mr. Lee and I talked to Fred March also, and they couldn’t remember who else was there in the audience. I’m so glad you remembered that. Was there anyone else there that you remember?
WILSON: Hmm. The president of the college was there and Billy Mac was there. Let’s see. That’s a good question. But I do remember meeting these two gentlemen.
THIBODEAUX: Was there a reception afterwards, or just people came up to the stage?
WILSON: I know in the foyer after the performance, I believe there was something going on in the lobby, as I recollect, because everybody had all their friends and family there. I don’t remember whether or not there was any kind of food—I would assume there was something but at this point I couldn’t tell you what we had to eat.
THIBODEAUX: So the people in the production were allowed to invite their families?
WILSON: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
THIBODEAUX: That’s good because I heard it was kind of—
WILSON: Invited guests. And God bless her heart, the stage manager—because they were only limited—she opened the backstage door and let families in. She said, “Well,” you know, they weren’t supposed to let them—she did, and she let them in anyway, and so we got the families in first. So Dolores Aquirre, yes, she was very good about doing that.
THIBODEAUX: So you played to a packed house that night?
WILSON: Yes, we did. We did.
THIBODEAUX: That night or that day was it?
WILSON: It was that evening. Yeah, it was in the evening.
THIBODEAUX: Did you get an autograph?
WILSON: Yes. Matter of fact, I got some photographs there and I don’t know if I have the autographed program with me here. Let’s see if I have that clipping. They put us on the cover of—
THIBODEAUX: Oh.
WILSON: —that’s me behind there—but back there. Let’s see, do I still have—
THIBODEAUX: Is this your sister?
WILSON: Here. That’s my sister.
THIBODEAUX: Oh, Mama. Okay. I’m sorry.
WILSON: And that’s my little cousin, Johnny, right there, and I’m behind Ruth. Can’t see me there. Let’s see if I’ve got the clippings here. They put them on the cover. Cover of the San Antonio Light.
THIBODEAUX: Oh.
WILSON: Let’s see what this newspaper is, the San Antonio Express. They had something. See who else here. Austin American Statesman, they covered it too. And this is my hometown paper did an article on us too. (Thibodeaux laughs) Of course, you know. Let’s see. Do I still have—I know I have—
Oh, I know who else was there that night. J. J. Pickle was there because I have a letter from him.
THIBODEAUX: Oh, terrific.
WILSON: Yeah. He was there that night.
THIBODEAUX: So he sent a letter saying he enjoyed the performance?
WILSON: Yes. Yes. Yes. He had to send the letter—address to Mr. Barton and myself about the performance.
THIBODEAUX: I’m just going to read it, I think:
Dear Professor Barton, A Raisin in the Sun was a delightful play and made even more enjoyable by the outstanding performance by every one of your players. I send to you and hope you will express to them my personal congratulations and pride in their performance. The play not only gave us an excellent message, but it was also both entertaining and pleasant to watch the artists perform with such a professional manner. I was happy and proud to be there and again compliment you and your players. Sincerely, J. J. Pickle.
And a copy to you. You’ve got the original signature on it as well.
WILSON: Um hmm. That’s enough. I think I have some pictures of the performance. Now, this is not at the theater, but this is at the university. This is Thomas Quinn as a young man now, who is a three-time Emmy Award winning director. So he’s come a long way since this performance. I don’t know if I have – these things are not really dated. But I thought I had a copy of the program that both Mrs. Johnson and LBJ—but I guess I don’t have it in this stack. I thought I still had—I have it somewhere in my files.
THIBODEAUX: I hope you haven’t lost that.
WILSON: Yeah. I have it somewhere in my files, I mean, the program with both autographs on it. But, yes, it was quite an evening.
THIBODEAUX: And according to this—the San Antonio Light says, “A student, Leonard Wilson, tells Miss Wilson to count the zeros.”
WILSON: Yeah.
THIBODEAUX: What was that about?
WILSON: Oh, they donated a check. I believe they gave us a thousand dollars to the Ebony Players for the fund drive to support the group, yeah. That was very nice of the Johnsons to do that.
THIBODEAUX: And apparently, that wasn’t expected.
WILSON: No.
THIBODEAUX: You seemed surprised.
WILSON: No, that was just out of their generosity. They were moved by the performance and decided, well, they wanted to be a part of helping the organization. It did come as a surprise to us.
Yeah, I remember now. They were honoring J. C. Kellam. It was a honoring of him that night and they wanted the players to be there for entertainment. I’m sitting here reading some of the reviews, remember why were we at the LBJ State Park. (Thibodeaux laughs) And that’s what it was. They were honoring J. C. Kellam, and they wanted something for entertainment. And if I recollect, they approached the president of the college, and he approached Mr. Barton and the rest is history.
THIBODEAUX: And it says in the San Antonio Express that you had another run—a four-night run in June. That was at the university though, right?
WILSON: Um hmm.
THIBODEAUX: So according to this, there was a picnic supper prior to the production. I assume that your party wasn’t involved in that because you were preparing?
WILSON: I don’t think so. I don’t think we were a part of that. I don’t remember that—we were the entertainment that evening—because we were in the process of moving stuff and everyone—getting everyone from A to B at that time. I haven’t looked at these in a while. I was going through my files as I was trying to organize a couple of other projects, and I remembered when I came across this, I said, well, Eugene told me this woman was going to call, so let me dust off this stuff and—
THIBODEAUX: Oh, a good idea though.
WILSON: —to see what was there because—to revisit that, that’s been a long time ago. Just a second.
THIBODEAUX: I did make contact with your sister by email, but we haven’t—
WILSON: Had a chance to—
THIBODEAUX: I sent her an email about a date, and I’m not sure if she even got it, just haven’t got a response back.
WILSON: Yeah. I have her number if you want her number.
THIBODEAUX: I think I have it.
WILSON: Okay.
THIBODEAUX: I’ll just contact her again.
WILSON: I know she keeps a pretty intense schedule.
THIBODEAUX: Well, she’s teaching. She’s busy all the time.
WILSON: Yeah. But I know she would want to do this. I thought I had that in here somewhere, but I guess—
THIBODEAUX: So that was your senior year? Were you involved in any other productions?
WILSON: Of the Players?
THIBODEAUX: Um hmm.
WILSON: I don’t believe so because I graduated that December, if I’m not mistaken. I know we did Ceremonies and Dark Old Men later that year and I had a role in that, but I did not direct anymore for the company as I’d finished up and got a job.
It’s very interesting going from a drama and music minor to working for the State Comptroller’s Department in El Paso.
THIBODEAUX: Did you stay active in theater?
WILSON: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. It was so interesting being in El Paso. I’m at a production, I don’t recall what the production was, and I am in the lobby and there is Dolores. She is at the University of Texas at El Paso doing her thesis, her master’s, and we didn’t know we were both in the same city. And so we looked—we’re bumping each other, “What are you doing here?” “What are you doing here?”
So I end up working with her on her thesis project. We did a Douglas Turner Ward play—let’s see, this is about the mayor. Let me think a minute here. What was the name of that play? Day of Absence. It’s a very interesting satire. It’s black people playing white people in whiteface, and the story deals with one day all the black people are gone. The white people wake up and all of them are gone, you know. So all the maids, the chauffeurs, everybody’s gone, and how they deal with this, and it’s a quite hilarious show, a quite hilarious show. It was her thesis project, and I even got a chance to play the mayor. We had a delightful time. Delightful time.
THIBODEAUX: So how did you hook up with Eugene Lee again, or did you always have a relationship with him?
WILSON: After I graduated, I went to El Paso, then I got married and had a family. But my sister knew Eugene too because they were—I’m four years older than Eugene—so they kept up with each other, and I would hear things from time to time, and over the years we spoke on the phone. Just within the last year, we both end up moving back to Texas. I’ve been away almost twenty years. I left out of here in ’89, and I came back just this past July of 2007. So I was in Denver for ten years and then in Virginia for the rest.
So my sister calls me and says, “Hey, Eugene has come back to Texas.” Said, “What?” She said, “Yeah, and I’ve given him your number and he should be calling you.” So I get a call from Eugene, saying, “Man, I’ve moved back. I’m back in San Marcos.” “In San Marcos?” And so, “I’m back here too. What’s up?” So we took a while to get together. I’ve been out to his house and met his wife and family. And we would just kind of reminisce of all the years that have passed. If I’m not mistaken, it had been about thirty-four years since we performed together. I think he said that’s how long it had been because he graduated in, I believe, ’74 or either ’78, and I graduated in ’72. He went to—he said he started teaching and then he went up to New York and got involved with the—what is it—the Negro Ensemble and started writing plays, and the rest is history with Eugene.
But it was great to get back on the stage together and work together again. I’m sure we’ll be doing something in the future. He’s given me one of his plays he wants me to read. I haven’t had a chance to read it yet, but I will read it. And he’s right now up in DC doing a tribute to August Wilson. The Kennedy Center. They’re going all ten of his plays, and he’s a part of that group that all of the actors are going to be doing some of his plays. I hope they record that. I would love to see that. I would love to see that.
THIBODEAUX: It’s interesting that you both came full circle back to the university.
WILSON: Isn’t it? Yes. Yes.
THIBODEAUX: So has it changed much since you’ve graduated?
WILSON: Well, Eugene and I had some interesting conversations about it. It seems like, you know, a lot of things have changed. It seems like it’s gone kind of full circle. We have a lot of wonderful things happen, but over the years—it’s been thirty years since I’ve been on the—the last time I was on that stage was in ’78, and I was in the thesis production of Cindy Holloway, so when she was doing her thesis work we did Steamers, and I played Carlisle. And it’s thirty years later and this is the first time they’ve done an August Wilson play. That’s a concern, a genuine concern. After all the things that happened with the LBJ thing, I would think that there would be more of a legacy than there is at this point. So that is a concern of mine.
THIBODEAUX: There is—I read recently about the contribution to build a new theater building at Texas State.
WILSON: Um hmm.
THIBODEAUX: That sounds like that’ll certainly give the theater department quite a boost.
WILSON: Um hmm.
THIBODEAUX: That’ll be interesting.
WILSON: I think so. Now, that’s new to me. I didn’t know that that was going on. What—inform me about that.
THIBODEAUX: It’s a foundation—in fact, out of Wimberley—and they’ve donated eight million dollars for a new theater building.
WILSON: Really?
THIBODEAUX: I don’t know where they’re going to build it.
WILSON: Yeah. Oh, that’s wonderful.
THIBODEAUX: So that is now in the works, I guess. I mean, that money was donated, I think, just like a week ago, just very, very recently.
WILSON: Oh. Oh, okay. Okay. I was going to say, wow.
THIBODEAUX: And it was—I think the woman is the foundation—I’ve forgot her name, and I’m not sure what her connection to Texas State is, but her foundation donated the money, so that was kind of exciting.
WILSON: Oh, that’s wonderful.
THIBODEAUX: Yeah.
WILSON: That’s wonderful. I’m glad to hear it.
THIBODEAUX: So maybe your next play there may be in the new theater.
WILSON: Yeah. In the new building there, yeah.
THIBODEAUX: Well, I think that’s all the questions I have. Thank you for putting up with me. I lost track on my page with questions. But I appreciate—
WILSON: Oh, it was my pleasure.
THIBODEAUX: It was definitely a pleasure. (end of interview)